Gay Marriage

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First, a question– We often hear that marriage is a “social institution.”  But is marriage a construct of society?  Or is society a construction of marriage?

     I would argue that society is defined by the nature of its families, not the other way around.  And since family begets society, it is the union of one man and one woman that should be held in higher esteem than any other bond.
     Now I don’t doubt that two homosexual partners can love each other (or children) as much as two heterosexual partners, but traditional marriage and homosexual unions will always remain on two different playing fields because the structure of society is formed over multiple generations.  Not only do homosexual unions, by nature, not produce the next generation, their adopted children are also denied being raised by both a father and a mother.
     Normally this is where I’d hear studies quoted that prove children raised by gays turn out to be just as normal as children raised by straights.  Okay.  So they’re not murderers and rapists.  That’s swell.  But let’s talk about two lesbian partners who adopt a girl–  Who sets the example for an adopted daughter should the daughter want to start her own family?  Whose lead does she follow in order to learn how to be a wife and mother?  I’ll even grant that two mothers can somehow pull that one off.  But who sets the example for their adopted son should he want to become a husband and father?  Clearly not his parent.
     The nature of traditional marriage and traditional family transcends individual generations.  Men pass their knowledge of masculinity down to their sons:  They teach them how to be direct, how to command authority, how to be practical around the house, and how to bond with other men.  Most importantly, they hand down their knowledge of how to love and respect a woman, and how to become a father when that time comes.  Women pass their knowledge of femininity down to their daughters:  They teach them how to communicate their emotions, how to show compassion, how to display beauty both inside and outside the home, and how to sympathize with other women.  Most importantly, they hand down their knowledge of how to love and respect a man, and how to become a mother when that time comes.
     A young female’s best resource for learning how to be a wife and mother is not her gay father’s friend or sister or any other secondary source; it is her own mother, who conveniently also has experience being a wife.
     (And I realize that some people choose not to be married and not to have children.  But should you not be prepared for marriage and children if, by some twist of life, you want to change your mind?)

A homosexual union, by nature, exists for a single generation among its loving constituents.  But its framework does not stand the test of time, and therefore its bond is simply not as fundamental to society’s family structure as traditional marriage.

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I pose another question–  Is marriage a right?

     Not under the United States Consitution.  State sanctioning of your marriage is not a right, in much the same way that your ability to drive your car on the roads of this country is not a right.  Such licenses are not granted to everyone who wants them.  Those who want the license must request it, and, given that these individuals are qualified, their license is granted by the state in which they reside.
     Family members can’t marry.  Children can’t marry.  People who are already married can’t marry.  Because some people may be granted a license while others are denied the very same license, the action which is protected by the license is not, by definition, a “right.”  Therein, the licensing of heterosexual marriage is not a “right”, so I fail to see how the licensing of homosexual marriage can be called a “right.”
     On the other hand, homosexual couples do have a legitimate case to call for the same legal treatment as heterosexual couples.  The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment supports this contention, and civil unions are a means by which this legal equality is reached.  But let’s be careful here; let’s keep things straight–  The Equal Protection Clause provides equal treatment under the law, but it says nothing about the definition of marriage.  Only those qualified for marriage licenses may obtain them, and under the traditional definition of marriage, homosexuals are simply not qualified.
    
     Also– In the Declaration of Independence it is written that we each have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Our Constitution, its amendments, and all the laws that are passed beyond our Constitution are intended to protect these three fundamental rights.  (i.e.  Murder is illegal because it infringes on one’s right to life.  The right to a speedy trial exists because any other condition would infringe upon one’s right to liberty.)
     One’s access to a state-sanctioned marriage is not tied to one of the three fundamental rights.  It may be painful to admit, but the “pursuit of happiness” is not infringed upon by a denial of a marriage license.  How do I know?  (1) The “pursuit of happiness” does not entitle you to anyone else’s approval of the way you choose to live your life, and (2) if you need the government to grant you a particular privelege in order for you to be happy, then you’ve lost your focus on what really makes you happy.

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Next, I’ll be blunt:  Allowing homosexuals to marry devalues the institution of marriage.

     “But how does allowing two people who love each other to marry cheapen the meaning of marriage?”  I’ll tell you how.  Because the more groups that are allowed to marry, the less value marriage has.  If everyone wins a trophy, then nobody’s trophy is worth anything.  And so it is with marriage:  part of its value is derived from its exclusivity.
     So here I pose a question to you, my reader:  Where do you draw the line?  If you were in charge, Which groups would you allow marry, and which groups would you not allow to marry?  Would you stop at heterosexual couples?  Or heterosexual and homosexual couples?  Heterosexuals, homosexuals, and second cousins?  Heterosexuals, homosexuals, second cousins, and animal lovers?  Okay, this can get ridiculous.  But to maintain the sanctity of marriage (and remember, the degree of sanctity I leave up to YOU), a line needs to be drawn.
     Jews, Muslims, and Christians (myself included) draw the line at heterosexual couples.  You might draw the line elsewhere, and that’s an opinion that I respect.  What I don’t appreciate, though, is an unwillingness to draw any line whatsoever.  I do not respect a complete lack of deference to the fact that marriage, by nature, is exclusive.  If you can’t form for yourself a divide between “these groups should be allowed to marry” and “these groups should not be allowed to marry”, then you really don’t know what’s at stake.

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Here I offer two warnings to homosexuals:

(1)  Do not look to non-homosexuals for an endorsement of your lifestyle.

Those who believe that acts of homosexuality are morally wrong will not be swayed by state sponsorship of your marriages.  And why?  Because morality is not derived from the state; it is derived from that which created us (whatever you believe that to be).  Right and wrong existed before organized government; right and wrong will outlive organized government.  Laws change; morality does not.

(2)  If you push against traditional marriage advocates, we will push back.

Many of us have very little to hold against homosexuals as individuals, but if we feel that our institution of marriage is threatened, we will react.

     The more this issue is forced into the public square, the more state ballot initiatives banning gay marriage will appear.  Notice that every time such an initiative is proposed, traditional marriage wins.  Why?  Because the American people recognize that this is not a “civil rights movement”.  Ending slavery– that was a civil rights movement.  Ending black/white segregation– that was about civil rights.  Allowing women to vote– that was about civil rights.  Giving women equal pay for equal work– that’s about civil rights.  Allowing homosexuals to enjoy the same benefits that state-sanctioned marriage affords to heterosexual couples?  This is about priveleges, not civil rights.

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And lastly, some advice to homosexuals and heterosexuals alike:  Marriage isn’t broken, so don’t try to fix it.

The union between man and woman has been held in the highest esteem for thousands of years by cultures spanning the entire globe.  To say that marriage is “constantly being redefined” is both factually incorrect and shamelessly ignorant.

The bond between man and woman forms families, families form communities, and communities create society, over multiple generations.  A bond so fundamental to our culture must be given the respect it is due, and that includes placing heterosexual unions ahead of homosexual ones by maintaining the traditional definition of marriage.

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See also:  “Cause & Effect: The Benefits of Traditional Marriage” by Paul Strand

20 Responses to “Gay Marriage”

  1. Anonymous Says:

    Wow… what a horribly close minded approach to the issue…

  2. Count Mazz Says:

    Feel free to present your side of the issue.

  3. anonymous Says:

    Marriage is a right that anyone should be able to have. Just because two people are not what society would consider “normal” does that mean they should not be allowed to stand up in front of all of their friends and family and pronounce their love. Are they not entitled to the same rights – tax deductions, medical benefits, etc… – just because they are of the same sex? Are they not allowed to raise a family? You are making it sound like homosexuals are a whole other species as opposed to people who just live a different life style as yours. I, myself, am not gay but I would never have the nerve to tell someone else that they can not enjoy all of the same rights I can because of something like that… to me, it is a huge form of descrimination. Just because people don’t fit perfectly into the mold that you have created as what a family should be does not mean they would be any worse parents.

    You continue to quote the documents that were written when this country was founded – 200 years ago. Things in the world have changed a lot since then – that is why we have constitutional amendments. Maybe that is something you should think about.

  4. Count Mazz Says:

    Okay– you and I differ as to what should be considered a “right”. And I readily admit that I have a pretty strict definition. But in no way, shape, or form will I believe that “tax deductions” and “medical benefits” are there for everyone to enjoy. Don’t think that just because so-and-so has X, that you should also have X. That goes for any other government goodies– If you don’t qualify for it, you don’t receive it.

    Two people pronouncing love to one another, gay or straight, is harmless. And if that’s all this was about, I’d agree with you. But to provide gays with the same priveleges as straights when it comes to marriage is not harmless. To grant gays a state-sanctioned marriage, along with those tax deductions and medical benefits, is to say that gay marriage pulls the same weight as traditional marriage. And that is simply not the case.

    This all stems from what I see as the point of marriage– raising children. Two people can profess their love for each other, but part of the reason they take their vows is so that they will feel compelled to stay together “in good times and in bad” for the sake of their children.

    And I believe that children should be raised by one mother and one father. All other things being equal, I would rather see a child raised by a loving heterosexual couple instead of a loving gay couple because the man can teach a son how to be a husband/father and the woman can teach a daughter how to be a wife/mother. It’s hardly a perfect arrangement, but the model is the best one for passing down ideas about masculinity as well as femininity.

    To go a step further, Christians like myself believe that the homosexual lifestyle is not merely an alternative lifestyle– it is morally wrong. Some of that has to do with the type of love that married men & women share. The male-female bond is ultimately procreative by nature; it is something sacred because it creates children in the image of their parents. The male-male or female-female bonds are not procreative; they are ultimately sexual by nature, and that is not sacred in the least. We also believe, more directly, that our own families should be structured as Jesus’ family was structured.

    I don’t want to go down the religious route too far, but I mention that to introduce why children should not need to ask why other children have two mommies or two daddies. Many parents believe what I believe and wish to raise their children with a similar morality. They also wish to present ideas about sexuality to their children at a time of their choosing. Presenting a homosexual relationship to a child at too early an age both confuses him and takes away part of his childhood innocence because now the heterosexual parent must find a colorful way to explain what I just explained here. That’s unnecessary. I think pre-empting mom, dad, and child in this regard is insidious.

    And just to drive the point home– just because you think that two mommies or two daddies is okay doesn’t mean that we think it is. You have your reasons; we have ours.

    This isn’t about denying gay people freedom. We’re not telling gays that they can’t love each other, or be with each other, or anything of the sort. This is about state-sanctioning of marriage– elevating gay unions to the same status as traditional marriage in the public square. And, for the reasons I present here, I will fight that.

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    I quote the country’s founding documents because oftentimes we forget that they are still relevant today.

    Amendments are ratified and laws do change, but not all new ideas catch on. Similar to how the Equal Rights Amendment of the 70s would have given men and women ‘equal’ status, I oppose giving gays and straights ‘equal’ status. I could probably boil my argument down to this: Men and women aren’t equal, so they don’t enjoy the same priveleges. Gays and straights aren’t equal, so they don’t enjoy the same priveleges.

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

    By the way, I thank you for presenting your side of the argument.

  5. anonymous Says:

    The bottom line is that you and I disagree on equal rights. I believe that gay people should be allowed to have all of the same rights as straight people in EVERYTHING – and that includes marriage. Their lifestyle is not just a choice they made when they woke up one day – “Oh, today I’ll be gay, but tomorrow I might be straight” – it’s who they are; just as black people don’t choose to be black, you didn’t choose to be whatever you are, etc… And personally, I don’t think that just because they have a certain sexual orientation means they should not be allowed all of the rights that others have. But I also believe a gay couple could raise a child just as successfully as a straight couple.

    Here is the last thing I am going to say – I understand that you have your opinion. This is America, and it is your right. BUT your opinion on morality should NOT be what determines the laws in this country… yours or ANYONE elses, and that includes the president. What SHOULD determine the laws is what is fair for the people who are being governed. And no matter what your moral beliefs may be, saying that two people are not allowed certain rights just because they are gay is DESCRIMINATION. Think about it – how would you like to be told that someone else has more individual freedoms that you just because of your skin color, or orientation, or religion, etc… If you were on the other end of the coin you’d be screaming for equal rights, and I would support you too.

  6. Count Mazz Says:

    I agree that gays and straights should have equal rights. Loving whomever you wish is a right (e.g. you can love a person who is currently married) but marrying whomever you wish is NOT a right (e.g. you can’t marry a person who is currently married).

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    Heterosexuality is not a lifestyle, nor is being black or being white. There is a difference between being born a certain way and choosing to live your life a certain way. One does not imply the other. Genetic disposition and childhood influence are not sufficient reasons for making your life’s choices. Homosexuals may not choose whether or not to be homosexual, and although they may possess tendencies that heterosexuals do not, they still choose their lifestyle.

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    Particular gay couples may be able to raise their children better than particular straight couples, but as a general rule, gay couples are ill-equipped to teach their sons about development as men and their daughters about development as women.

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    American law is not morally neutral. It is based on Judeo-Christian philosophy and its changes are heavily influenced by the concurrent moral makeup of the country.

    You say “your opinion on morality should NOT be what determines the law in this country”. And later you start with “what SHOULD determine the laws…” As soon as you tell me what “should” or “should not” be done, you put forth your own morality. If you say that so-and-so deserves this, and so-and-so deserves that because you think it’s fair– you’re defining your morality. Our country’s law will reflect what its citizens democratically determine is right. I will vote with my morality and you will vote with yours.

    If the shoe were on the other foot, maybe I would feel that way. But there are lots of people who feel they’re entitled to certain things. And just because a certain group feels that they deserve something– that does not mean that they actually deserve it.

    Again I submit that marriage is not a fundamental freedom. Not everybody who wants to marry is able to marry. That is discrimination, yes. The law discriminates against marriage between brother and sister; the law discriminates against marriage between adults and children. Discrimination — determining treatment in favor or against someone — is not, by definition, malevolent. And because I do not believe gays are being denied a fundamental right, I can wholeheartedly agree with the law’s discrimination in favor of traditional marriage.

  7. matt Says:

    While America was first founded with some Judeo Christian values those belifes were certanally not held with all of our founders. Many of those founders held more agnostic if not outright athiestic belifs. Thomas Jefferson for one wrote in amny letters of his sceptical view of many religous views. Whiile he refers vaugly to a creator in other ofhis writings his view on god seems impersonal at best. Further, many of the people coming to this country came to avoid bieng persecuted for thiere belifs. In england people who were not members of the church of England were subtly discriminated against. They were given special taxes, found it harder to get certain jobs and suprise had a hard time getting married. Simaler to the situation here no?
    Another little fact about the founding of our country. When we broke away from England we did so because we thought they had to much conrtoll over us. It was to strong of a central goverment. After the revalution many precautions were taken so that our goverment would not grow so powerfull. Jefferson himself stated that the goverment that governs least governs best. But here we are now with you saying that marriage is not a right, but rather a privalige given to us by our almighty goverment. This suprises me seeing as it gives the goverment an uncomfterable amount of power. I would agree more with socrates who saw the goverment as no more then the protector of the people, nothing more. Further i value individual power far greater then the power of the whole. My rights should stop at the end of youre nose. Meaning that i should be able to do whatever i please so long as it hurts no one else. Perhaps that opionon is a little libertarian but i daresay its a better one then saying that it should be the goverment deciding who we can commit vows of everlasting love towards. Also since you consider yourself Christan it suprises me you think of marriage as a state power to endow. As a christan myself i would say these sort of vows have moral and religous connations that should be beetween you youre partner and youre God.
    Now you speak of children many times. That somehow the purpose of marriage is somehow to have kids. Now does this mean a women not capable of bearing children should not be allowed to marry? That the purpose of this holy union is no more then a mating ritual? I cant concur with that conclusion and niether do i belive any other christan would be pleased at such a slight of the holy matrimony.
    Besides which many gay couples are better care takers of children then many straght people. In fact seeing how abusive and horribal the system of foster care is a home where the children can be care for by two loving gay people is a blessing

  8. matt Says:

    another thing on the tradition of marrige. Our culture may see gay marrige as wron but that is not a precedent with marriage in General. The mayans for examples wholeheartedly apporved of threesome marriages simaler to a menege a trois where there would be to males and one women all commited to eachother. The romans saw nothing wrong to be bisexual and niether did the greeks. Alexander the great himself was bi sexual. These cultures certanilly did not suffer because of tolerance towards homosexuals.

  9. Count Mazz Says:

    (1) America was not simply “founded with some Judeo-Christian values”.

    To say that “many of those founders held more agnostic if not outright atheistic beliefs” is misleading. America’s founding fathers were overwhelmingly Deists, if not also Christians. Above all else, they respected a greater moral authority than themselves. Oftentimes they referred to this authority as the “Creator.” The founders realized that you don’t need to be a member of a given religion, but you should respect some type of higher authority than yourself– be it God, country, whatever. They realized that, without respect for this higher moral authority embedded in the rule of law, the country would descend into anarchy.

    (2) My discussion thusfar has centered on marriage as sanctioned by the state as opposed to marriage as sanctioned by the church.

    I understand your analogy, but its applicability is a stretch. In the England that our forefathers were escaping, the church was the state. In today’s America, the two entities are nearly distinct but they are connected by the process of democracy. I do NOT look to our government as the authority on marriage, but I DO see our government as an instrument through which a Christian like myself can democratically implement social policy.

    The granting of a marriage license is a state power to endow, no matter how you cut it. The granting of the marriage itself, as a union of two loving individuals, is not. You can profess your love to whomever you wish; that’s not what I’m arguing against. If your religion permits you to marry, then by all means, marry. Marriage as sanctioned by your church may be a right, but marriage as sanctioned by our government is not.

    (3) I agree that a large central government tramples individual liberty. I also agree that marriage is between “you, your partner, and God.” Perhaps we should remove the government’s ability to sanction marriage. Perhaps we should leave marriage solely in the hands of the Church.

    (4) Marriage is not only between you, your partner, and God, though. It is between you and the community in front of which you take your vows, and it is also between you and the family that you raise. What I should have said before was that although raising children isn’t marriage’s ONLY purpose, raising children is its most important purpose. Individual marriages may mean different things to different people, but marriage as an institution is much more than the companionship that two individuals enjoy. Going back to my very first point– traditional marriage is the bedrock of family and, by implication, society.

    (5) I’ve tried to stay away from religious arguments in this blog, but I’m going to stray again from my intended path because you bring up some assumptions about my Christian views.

    Now, you may not be as much of a hard-line Christian as I am with regard to this subject, but let’s be clear on what Christianity says about homosexuality: You are to love the homosexual person, but you do not accept his lifestyle. And clearly marriage to another homosexual is part of this lifestyle.

    (I’ve heard some fairly liberal interpretations of the Bible that are pretty passive when it comes to homosexual behavior. Interpret as you will; the fact remains that Christianity does not sanction homosexual marriage.)

    And while I have the opportunity to explain this–

    Being a Christian does not mean letting everyone do whatever they want, passively accepting the lifestyles of others, and leaving all moral judgment to God. Being a Christian means living a wholesome life and encouraging others to do the same. Being a Christian means that you hate sins but that you love sinners. Being a Christian means recognizing that, although nobody’s perfect, everyone can be forgiven. Being a Christian means pointing out homosexual acts as sinful while giving homosexuals the same love that you give everyone else.

    And don’t assume that, since I do not approve of how a person lives his life, that I do not love him as much as the next guy. That’s wrong. People that I care about make poor decisions all the time. I trust that they will learn from their mistakes. I will help them learn from their mistakes. And I hope that they would do the same for me.

  10. Count Mazz Says:

    I don’t doubt that studying other cultures can teach us much about our humanity. To be blunt, though, the morality of the Mayans, Romans, and Greeks is irrelevant here.

    If you live in America, you should celebrate American history and defend traditional American values.

    I hope that the culture of your own country is much closer to your heart than the cultures of ancient civilizations.

  11. matt Says:

    But what is American culture? Dont get me wrong i believe that this country is the finest in the world but that is due to our very unique culture different then any other. Americans are not united by race or languge or commen ancestor. We do not all have the same customs. We are a land of Immagration. A land of acceptance and most importently a land of freedom. It is that sense of freedom that beckoned thousands to rush to American soil in immagration. That sense of independence in which we declared that our rights come not from any man made goverment but from a creator. It was that acceptance of other cultures and ideas that welcomed waves upon waves of other forieghn nationals. The Irish, Italian, German and Chinese rushed to our counrty bringing with them thiere own cultural identity that helped reshape America. The US is not really a melting pot of cultures. Rather it is a salad of cultures where all the diffrences are proudly displayed in a sense of freedom. The goverment is simply a tool, made by the people to defend our freedoms. It is our servant not our master. This does not mean it is a tool to the MAJORITY. While a tool, it can only serve freedom.It must protect individual rights just as much as it protects our border. We are not a democracy run by the masses. We are a demacratic republic. The minority must be protected from the majority. This is our cultural identity. A nation where it is safe to be unpopular. A nation where individualism is priased. A nation where evryone is entitled to live thiere own life and a nation where evryone succeeds or fails on thiere own merits.
    If you do not allow gays to marry you deny them a choice they wish to make. I brought up the history of marriage to point out that it is not exclusivly heterosexual. I brought up our culture to show that it is one of individual choice free from the goverment and i implore to youre christianity to accept a part of some people that they were born with. How can any of us say it is a choice. I believe God made them that way. Chose them to be that way. If not when did you make youre choice? Can you not remeber the first time you fell in love? The look in her eay? The longing to be with her? Did you not want ever to be with somoene the rest of youre life? To grow old together? To be accepted in our society as one unit bound by love and by God? How can we deny the same to any other human bieng? We are not god. It is not up to us to judge. And if love is truly a sin, as you say, then i pray that i never fall under the gaze of so judmental a God then the one you worship. For if i did i would be smited. For i am sure that if a God was so judmental as to oppose that then we are all doomed never to reach heaven. For i assure you there are far far greater crimes. A trruly forgiving God, a God who would love us enough to sacrifice his son for us would be loving enough to forgive us for a “sin” of love.

  12. Count Mazz Says:

    I agree with much of what you’ve said. Let me just address my exceptions:

    (1) Although it’s cliche, I’d still say that America is more a melting pot than a salad of cultures. Part of being/becoming an American is acclimating to our democratic process, capitalism, the rule of law, the English language. And every American should respect our country’s history (e.g. its Judeo-Christian roots, our military as a force for liberation) regardless of his/her particular point of entry into it. We are a diverse people, but there is commonality and tradition here.

    (2) Our government serves at the behest of its people– guided by the majority and within the rule of law. On the macro scale, our country isn’t a democracy, but on the micro scale, it is. If a certain area of the country wishes to vote in favor of gay marriage, then its law will allow gay marriage. If another area wishes not to vote in favor of gay marriage– that is its prerogative.

    (3) Yes, denying homosexuals the ability to marry is denying them a choice. But we are not ‘endowed by our Creator’ with the freedom to do anything that we want to do. Our freedom is not absolute.

    If marriage were a fundamental freedom, then anyone who wanted to marry would be able to marry. That’s simply not the case.

    Yes, you may live your own life and succeed or fail by your own merits, but you are “entitled” to very little. By no means are any of us entitled to marriage.

    (4) You make the same point that the anonymous commenter made a few entries ago– that I would feel differently if I were the one being denied a marriage. And I probably would feel that way, the shoe being on the other foot. Nevertheless, emotion does not form the basis of the Christian morality. A feeling that something is right does not necessarily make it right.

    (5) Indeed there are “far greater crimes.” But the relative weight of another offense does not change something that is sinful into something that is not.

  13. matt Says:

    Now you and i may respect those traditions, or at least some of them but you cant honestly believe that because somthing is a tradition that makes it right. Think about it slavery was once a tradition. So wasthe exsclusion of women in politics. Our country changes all the time as does the culture and traditions we consider normal. Maybe back in the 50’s we were all apple pies and daises but we face a very diffrent world now. We are a diverse people. That right to be diverse is what makes America special. You say there is a commonality and tradition here but in reality thats not really true anymore. It never really was. America is a rapidly changing place. We are for one of the very first times in our history seriosly discussing haveing a black president in 08. Kids listen to diffrent music watch diffrent tv and read diffrent books then a few years ago. Besides different literature even our history books are changing. More and more books are biueng printed praising both womens achivments and the achievments of blacks in our society. Things are diffrent and will always keep changing. You have to accept that.
    Further what you say about demacrocy is not nessarly true. We have a precedent of courts protecting rights of minoritys in our country. The courts disbanded froms of segragation and bussed black students to white schools against the howls of rage from white biggoted parents. They have the right and have exersized the right of ignoring majority in the past to protect minority rights. Demacracy is a beutifull thing but so is law and a sense of order. To have that order evryone has to have equal rights.
    Its true our freedom is not absolute. Here are a few freedoms we do possess, freedom to pursue happiness, freedom of religion and freedom to live youre life as you please if it does not take away the rights of others. Marriage certanilly falls withen the range of the first two, one of which is outlined in the declaration of independence and the other can be found in our constition. If youre speaking about tradition it can certanilly be found there. As for the last well thats more opioin coming from a libertarian bacround. However that sentement certanially has a basis of tradition if you look towards Thomas Jefferson who said the goverment that governs least governs best. We are entitled to one thing in life. We are entiltled to live out our lives as we wish to do so. Thats what society is really about, creating a safe haven where like minded people can protect thiere right to live thiere life in the manner they choose. The thing that makes America special is that the thing that unites us are the freedoms were so proud of.
    I would dissagree that feelings cannot be the basis of morality. It was Jesus himself who declared that we recieve three gifts from God above bieng hope charity and love. he continued on to say that the greates of all these gifts was the the gift of love. How can you deny anyone that gift from God? It is his greatest gift. Who are you, a mere mortal to decide that God was wrong in making somoene homosexual. How can you judge. It was also Jesus who said the only those without sin can throw stones at others. I very much doubt you or anyone else is without sin therefor you have NO right to judge ANYONE else. Especially if what there doing does not affect you. Do you honestly believe youreself so wise that you know Gods mind? Emotion certanilly does form the base of christian morals. God teaches us to love and forgive. After that everythinh else is gravy.

  14. Count Mazz Says:

    I didn’t say that because something is tradition that it is morally correct. At the same time, there are good reasons as to why marriage has been defined as between one man and one woman for thousands of years spanning the entire globe. Sure, there are exceptions, but they are far too few to compete with the general rule.

    Some traditions are wrong. Slavery was wrong. Exclusion of women from politics was wrong. Segregation was wrong. These were civil rights situations that, over the course of our country’s history, were re-examined and corrected through the passage of appropriate legislation (not court orders which merely exploit loopholes).

    The thirteenth amendment abolished slavery. The nineteenth amendment granted women the right to vote. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prevented discrimination and segregation. If gays should be allowed to marry, then let the legislature pass the necessary laws.

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    Our country is constantly evolving. Certainly. But change is not always positive. Diversity is not always beneficial. New ideas are not always good ideas.

    It is a shallow liberal argument to say that the inevitability of change requires that I accept what you think will probably happen. No. I believe gay marriage is bad for our country and there are lots of other Americans who agree with me. By the same token, there are lots of Americans who disagree with me. The democractic process will determine whether the privilege of state-sponsored marriage extends to gays.

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    I agree that marriage falls within the range of the pursuit of happiness and the freedom of religion. State sponsorship of marriage, however, does not.

    As a Catholic, I believe that my church has the right idea about who is/isn’t allowed to marry, and therefore any opinions that I write and votes that I cast will parallel the Catholic faith. Gays don’t have a religion to look to in order to validate their marriages. That doesn’t mean that the state should take the place of such a religion and offer such validation.

    State sponsorship reflects the will of both heterosexuals and homosexuals. My vote will (and should) count just as much as a gay man’s vote.

    ——————————

    Saying “our freedom is not absolute” and “we are entitled to live out our lives as we please” is a contradiction.

    For the most part, this country allows us to do whatever we want to do. But the cold hard truth is that we are not entitled to live out our lives as we please. Our freedom exists between our nation’s laws.

    I will vote for laws in one direction; you may vote for laws in another. If you don’t like your state’s law, you can try to change it or you can move to another state. If you don’t like our nation’s law, you can try to change it or you can move to another country.

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    I’m not denying any gift from God and I’m not saying God was wrong in making a person homosexual. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    It is not being homosexual that is wrong; it is giving in to homosexual desires that is wrong.

    It may not be our place to judge people as good or bad, but it is PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE to judge decisions (or ideas) as good or bad. I give people a baseline of respect because they are human beings. I do not extend the same baseline of respect for actions or ideas. (Some actions are wrong. Some ideas are simply ridiculous.) My problem isn’t with homosexuals– it’s with homosexual marriage.

    And don’t tell me that homosexual marriage does not affect me. The wedding of homosexuals doesn’t occur ‘behind closed doors’ or ‘in a vacuum’. It has a huge impact on the society in which I live. It twists the construction of family and it devalues heterosexual marriage. It is something that I want my children to have minimal exposure to when they’re young.

    I see widespread acceptance of gay marriage as far more insidious than just the loving union of homosexual couples, and I will advocate against it as I deem necessary.

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    Emotion does not form the basis of Christian morals. No damn way.

    You can’t claim that, because Jesus encouraged us to love one another, that we should all accept what/how/who everybody else loves. That’s a huge distortion of his message. “Love your neighbor” does not give a person license to perform acts of homosexuality, nor does it discourage others from decrying such acts as immoral.

    You can give plenty of love to another person without permitting his/her natural behavior. The love of a parent for a rambunctious child is a perfect example.

    More importantly, though– The Bible starts with the Old Testament, not the New one. You can’t discount stories such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and say that the tenets of Christianity began with Jesus’ life. There’s a lot that God teaches us about morality before Jesus is even on the scene (e.g. the Ten Commandments).

    The Son may be ambiguous in his speech with regards to homosexuality, but the Father is not. A Christian accepts the teachings of both.

  15. matt Says:

    Well let me start off by saying that I definitely did not intend to put words in your mouth. I will continue to say that it was completely wrong headed when you said that “Gays don’t have a religion to look to in order to validate their marriages”. The catholic faith may discriminate against gays. That does not mean that all religions are so narrow minded. My church for one openly accepts gay relationships and my minister Ann is pretty open minded when it comes to lifestyle choices.
    It is not just the love your neighbor idea that validates an opinion of emotion being the basis of Christianity. Besides Jesus promoting love as the greatest of all gifts it is for love that Jesus sacrifices himself. The lord loves us so much that he wishes his own son to be sacrificed for our sins. How is love not the basis for Christianity. As for the Old Testament, the stories in the Old Testament were told by several different people at several different times by word of mouth. How can some of that information not become corrupted? Further many parts of the Old Testament actually contradict each other. The Old Testament is not infallible.
    Let me point out that you are not the only Christian in the world. YOU do not represent all the Christians in the world and YOU are not in a place to determine the “Christian morality” you have your own morality which you seek to impose on the Bible. So do NOT tell me what I teachings I have to accept to be a Christian.
    You say you have a problem with homosexual marriage. My question is what is your problem with it? You say it erodes our morality and the tradition of marriage. Despite the fact that I have already pointed out that there are MANY cultures around the world (the ones I mentioned being only a few) who would not see homosexuality as part of that tradition. How? How does it erode anything? What is it exactly that actually wrong with gay marriage?

  16. matt Says:

    By the way saying “Our freedom is not absolute” and “we are entitled to live out our lives as we please” is not a contridiction in the context of what I was saying. In short what i meant by the two qoutes was that we can do whatever we like so long as it doesnt harm anybody else.

  17. Count Mazz Says:

    (1) It appears that we come from very different branches of Christianity. You see homosexual acts as harmless choices of lifestyle and I see them as sinful. There’s little room for compromise there.

    (2) If you want to say that God gave us the Bible, the Ten Commandments, his only son, and all of his teachings, etc. out of love… Okay, I agree, Christianity is founded upon love– the love that God has for us. But the love that we as human beings have for other human beings– that’s something else.

    The love that we have for our mother and father, the love that we have for our friends– these are blessed things. But not all types of “love” are good. Some people have very crooked ideas about love. Making lifestyle choices in the name of “love” does not absolve sinful behavior, and that is why morality cannot be based on love.

    (3) If you want to call yourself a Christian, you ought to believe what the Bible tells you– whether you believe it was written by humans, by the Holy Spirit, or by some combination of the two. If you want to interpret particular stories in a different way than I do, then be my guest. But discounting the Old Testament as “corrupted” is a cop-out.

    (4) I’ve been repeating myself in explaining what’s wrong with gay marriage. I’ve made a case against its impact on family structure, its impact on heterosexual marriage, and its impact on children. I’ve been rather blunt in everything I’ve written so far. I don’t know what else to say, except, go back and read the blog again.

    (5) Marriage, as an institution, has a huge effect on society. I’d like to think that gay marriage doesn’t have any effect on me or my family or the society in which I live, but it does. Clearly I believe such an establishment harms others– that’s why I’m writing all of this.

  18. matt Says:

    no you havent been very clear. You have been very clear that it effects people. You have been very clear that it effects familys and children. You have not been clear why exactly it is a negitive effect. thats what im asking you. Why is homosexuality inherintly wrong. Why is it a bd thing if a child sees those family structures and thinks that there ok? What is it that is nessarily WRONG with homosexuality. On this point you have been pretty vauge. Maybe im wrong maybe im just missing somthing here or ive glossed over one of your very numerous comments but i cant think of one thing that youve said that makes homosexuality INHERINTLY

  19. matt Says:

    sorry accidently sent it too soon. My next word was going to be wrong.

  20. Count Mazz Says:

    (1) Being a homosexual isn’t wrong; acts of homosexuality are wrong. I’m not anti-gay; I’m anti-gay-marriage.

    (2) All of the effects that I’ve talked about above ARE negative and that’s why homosexual marriage, one example of an act of homosexuality, is wrong.

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